Discussion:
Why Islamic countries can't be like the West
(too old to reply)
Byker
2017-04-02 18:33:36 UTC
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Raw Message
-- Anti-intellectualism and anti-science bias of modern fundamentalist
Islam. Clearly it's not the case that Islam itself is hostile to science;
after all, for hundreds of years, the Islamic world was the standard-bearer
for world scientific knowledge and progress. Yet, education in many Muslim
countries consists primarily of religious rather than scientific programs,
and those who do get quality educations in the west tend to remain overseas.

-- Women as second-class citizens. It's not just that women can't contribute
directly to the workforce (although that's a big factor), but that women
aren't educated to the same standard, and thus aren't able to raise children
to be scientists and engineers as effectively. This is one area where great
progress has been made, but there's a generational lag.

-- Geopolitical instability. In general, lack of stability doesn't lead
people to make long-term investments in the future. If you're worried the
world is going to end, you're going to enjoy life now (to the extent
possible), not sacrifice a lot to potentially have a better future. A high
level of fatalism and lack of feeling of agency has never helped
entrepreneurship.

-- Antiquated legal environment (largely based on old UK law without update,
merged with Sharia), and not really compatible with modern business. Setting
up a business takes a long time, requires local partners, etc. - not a free
market. There are efforts to have different law for some countries (the
Dubai free trade zones are great examples -- Jebel Ali in the 70s was
probably the first major development of its kind), but the law outside
business still needs revision.

-- Corruption. It's a combination of an inefficient official process and a
small number of wealthy and powerful families, able to either change the law
as needed, or ignore it. If you ever get into a dispute with a local
national, you're going to lose. If local nationals of different levels of
power get into a dispute, it's usually decided on the basis of connections,
vs. the merits of the case.

-- High cost of failure. If someone launches a new business and it fails,
there's a high degree of shame and loss of social standing, but even worse,
potential prison time for any debts personally guaranteed. Compare this to
Silicon Valley where an entrepreneur with a few failed businesses is
generally viewed as experienced.
d***@agent.com
2017-04-03 07:26:21 UTC
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Post by Byker
-- Anti-intellectualism and anti-science bias of modern fundamentalist
Islam. [...]
You can't build a foundation for peace on Special Interest;
it has to be built on General Interest, so everyone can
get on board. Peace depends upon Unity!
abelard
2017-04-03 11:15:43 UTC
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Post by d***@agent.com
Post by Byker
-- Anti-intellectualism and anti-science bias of modern fundamentalist
Islam. [...]
You can't build a foundation for peace on Special Interest;
it has to be built on General Interest, so everyone can
get on board. Peace depends upon Unity!
unity is not the objective of would be dictatorships...

hence the invariable factionalism of socialists seeking election
or revolution
Vidcapper
2017-04-03 13:43:59 UTC
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Post by abelard
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by Byker
-- Anti-intellectualism and anti-science bias of modern fundamentalist
Islam. [...]
You can't build a foundation for peace on Special Interest;
it has to be built on General Interest, so everyone can
get on board. Peace depends upon Unity!
unity is not the objective of would be dictatorships...
They generally want conformity, which is surely related to unity?
--
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham
abelard
2017-04-03 18:13:03 UTC
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Post by Vidcapper
Post by abelard
Post by d***@agent.com
Post by Byker
-- Anti-intellectualism and anti-science bias of modern fundamentalist
Islam. [...]
You can't build a foundation for peace on Special Interest;
it has to be built on General Interest, so everyone can
get on board. Peace depends upon Unity!
unity is not the objective of would be dictatorships...
They generally want conformity, which is surely related to unity?
each one wishes to be fuhrer and thus to define
the one true faith...
Keith Willshaw
2017-04-03 16:12:52 UTC
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Raw Message
Post by Byker
-- Anti-intellectualism and anti-science bias of modern fundamentalist
Islam. Clearly it's not the case that Islam itself is hostile to science;
after all, for hundreds of years, the Islamic world was the standard-bearer
for world scientific knowledge and progress. Yet, education in many Muslim
countries consists primarily of religious rather than scientific programs,
and those who do get quality educations in the west tend to remain overseas.
<snip>

All vaild points which gain emphasis when you look at the exceptions
such as Jordan, Indonesia and Malaysia which all have relatively liberal
outlooks and have been rather successful. This of course hacks off the
Islamic Fundamentalists something rotten.


KeithW
Byker
2017-04-03 20:05:15 UTC
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Raw Message
All vaild points which gain emphasis when you look at the exceptions such
as Jordan, Indonesia and Malaysia which all have relatively liberal
outlooks and have been rather successful.
And in those countries, you see uniforms and automatic weapons everywhere,
ready to stamp out any semblance of jihad...
Jonathan
2017-04-03 16:47:20 UTC
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Raw Message
Is it the people that are different, or the
systems of government?
Post by Byker
-- Anti-intellectualism and anti-science bias of modern fundamentalist
Islam. Clearly it's not the case that Islam itself is hostile to science;
after all, for hundreds of years, the Islamic world was the standard-bearer
for world scientific knowledge and progress. Yet, education in many Muslim
countries consists primarily of religious rather than scientific programs,
and those who do get quality educations in the west tend to remain overseas.
-- Women as second-class citizens. It's not just that women can't contribute
directly to the workforce (although that's a big factor), but that women
aren't educated to the same standard, and thus aren't able to raise children
to be scientists and engineers as effectively. This is one area where great
progress has been made, but there's a generational lag.
-- Geopolitical instability. In general, lack of stability doesn't lead
people to make long-term investments in the future. If you're worried the
world is going to end, you're going to enjoy life now (to the extent
possible), not sacrifice a lot to potentially have a better future. A high
level of fatalism and lack of feeling of agency has never helped
entrepreneurship.
-- Antiquated legal environment (largely based on old UK law without update,
merged with Sharia), and not really compatible with modern business. Setting
up a business takes a long time, requires local partners, etc. - not a free
market. There are efforts to have different law for some countries (the
Dubai free trade zones are great examples -- Jebel Ali in the 70s was
probably the first major development of its kind), but the law outside
business still needs revision.
-- Corruption. It's a combination of an inefficient official process and a
small number of wealthy and powerful families, able to either change the law
as needed, or ignore it. If you ever get into a dispute with a local
national, you're going to lose. If local nationals of different levels of
power get into a dispute, it's usually decided on the basis of connections,
vs. the merits of the case.
-- High cost of failure. If someone launches a new business and it fails,
there's a high degree of shame and loss of social standing, but even worse,
potential prison time for any debts personally guaranteed. Compare this to
Silicon Valley where an entrepreneur with a few failed businesses is
generally viewed as experienced.
Byker
2017-04-03 20:13:46 UTC
Permalink
Raw Message
Is it the people that are different, or the systems of government?
Must be their culture, which they try impose on anyone foolish enough to let
them in:

http://markhumphrys.com/islamic.world.html

http://tribune.com.pk/story/290809/why-muslim-states-fail

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JL16Ak02.html

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/sep/28/afghanistan.religion

http://www.khilafah.com/why-has-the-muslim-world-failed-to-develop/

http://www.meforum.org/306/why-does-the-muslim-world-lag-in-science

http://www.macleans.ca/politics/worldpolitics/why-muslim-world-decline

https://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/Ohmyrus/islam_failed_muslims.htm

http://gatesofvienna.net/2013/01/deep-down-muslims-feel-that-they-have-failed/

http://orientalreview.org/2011/06/04/failure-of-the-nation-states-in-islamic-world/

http://islamicsystem.blogspot.com/2010/01/why-has-muslim-world-failed-to-develop.html

http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/139155/islams-universal-economic-failure-daniel-greenfield

http://www.quora.com/Why-has-the-Muslim-world-failed-to-produce-enough-successful-scientists
Andrew Swallow
2017-04-03 23:58:14 UTC
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Post by Jonathan
Is it the people that are different, or the
systems of government?
Both.

They were given democracy on independence. They chose a dictator who
robbed them.
a425couple
2017-04-04 22:22:08 UTC
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Raw Message
"Byker" <***@do~rag.net> wrote in message...
Re: Why Islamic countries can't be like the West
Post by Byker
-- Anti-intellectualism and anti-science bias of modern fundamentalist
Islam. Clearly it's not the case that Islam itself is hostile to science;
after all, for hundreds of years, the Islamic world was the
standard-bearer
for world scientific knowledge and progress. Yet, education in many Muslim
countries consists primarily of religious rather than scientific programs,
and those who do get quality educations in the west tend to remain overseas.
-- Women as second-class citizens. It's not just that women can't contribute
directly to the workforce (although that's a big factor), but that women
aren't educated to the same standard, and thus aren't able to raise children
to be scientists and engineers as effectively. This is one area where great
progress has been made, but there's a generational lag.
-- Geopolitical instability. In general, lack of stability doesn't lead
people to make long-term investments in the future. If you're worried the
world is going to end, you're going to enjoy life now (to the extent
possible), not sacrifice a lot to potentially have a better future. A high
level of fatalism and lack of feeling of agency has never helped
entrepreneurship.
-- Antiquated legal environment (largely based on old UK law without update,
merged with Sharia), and not really compatible with modern business. Setting
up a business takes a long time, requires local partners, etc. - not a free
market. There are efforts to have different law for some countries (the
Dubai free trade zones are great examples -- Jebel Ali in the 70s was
probably the first major development of its kind), but the law outside
business still needs revision.
-- Corruption. It's a combination of an inefficient official process and a
small number of wealthy and powerful families, able to either change the law
as needed, or ignore it. If you ever get into a dispute with a local
national, you're going to lose. If local nationals of different levels of
power get into a dispute, it's usually decided on the basis of
connections,
vs. the merits of the case.
-- High cost of failure. If someone launches a new business and it fails,
there's a high degree of shame and loss of social standing, but even worse,
potential prison time for any debts personally guaranteed. Compare this to
Silicon Valley where an entrepreneur with a few failed businesses is
generally viewed as experienced.
A couple additional thoughts.

The Islamic countries have not had a Reformation, which among
other changes, let secular work also be viewed as a glory to God.

Also, they have been stuck with AD 600 definitions of usury,
which has greatly limited modern banking, and the great growth
that has allowed.

Some decent reads on the subject:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protestant_Ethic_and_the_Spirit_of_Capitalism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reformation#Protestant_ethic
'Consequences of the Protestant Reformation
The following outcomes of the Protestant Reformation regarding human capital
formation, the Protestant ethic, economic development, governance, and
"dark" outcomes have been identified by scholars:[24]
Human Capital formation
Higher literacy rates.[44]
Lower gender gap in school enrollment and literacy rates.[45]
Higher primary school enrollment.[46]
Higher public spending on schooling and better educational performance
of
military conscripts.[47]
Higher capability in reading, numeracy, essay writing, and history.[48]
Protestant ethic
More hours worked.[49]
Divergent work attitudes of Protestant and Catholics.[50]
Fewer referenda on leisure, state intervention, and redistribution in
Swiss
cantons with more Protestants.[51]
Lower life satisfaction when unemployed.[52]
Pro-market attitudes.[53]
Income differences between Protestants and Catholics.[44]
Economic development
Different levels of income tax revenue per capita, % of labor force in
manufacturing and services, and incomes of male elementary school
teachers.[44]
Protestant cities grew more.[54][55]
Greater entrepreneurship among religious minorities in Protestant
states.[56][57]
Different social ethics.[58]'

'The Reformation profoundly affected the view of work, dignifying even
the most mundane professions as adding to the common good and thus
blessed by God, as much as any "sacred" calling (German: Ruf). A common
illustration is that of a cobbler, hunched over his work, who devotes his
entire effort to the praise of God.'

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